JE 2024 : Interview Naoki Yoshida (FF14 - EN)

With Japan Expo, producer and director Naoki Yoshida made the trip to see French fans after a 5-years absence. We had the opportunity to interview him, a few days after the release of the latest Dawntrail expansion, to ask him a few questions.

This interview was done in collaboration with FFDream, and was conducted in French-Japanese thanks to Odilon Grevet, head of French localization.

WARNING : heavy spoilers ahead. Read only if you're done with Dawntrail

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Naoki Yoshida : Thank you for coming. It's the first day of Japan Expo, you may have other interviews, other guests you want to see, so I'm extremely pleased that you've taken the time to come here to talk about Final Fantasy. Because of the pandemic, I haven't been able to come to France for 5 years to meet FFXIV fans. So it's a real pleasure to be here with you again. And yesterday, we had a Fan Gathering, and the motivation of the fans and the smiles gave me energy for at least the next few weeks.

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Finaland : I'd like to talk about difficulty and progression curves: I think there's been a problem for new players since Shadowbringers. You can see that at certain stages of the game, they don't master what should be mastered. The players are obviously partly to blame, but the game clearly doesn't help. Old contents are too simple and done in record time. Do you think the Novice Hall could be redone to compensate for this lack of player knowledge? I've seen that new jobs are also entitled to a tutorial. Will this be for all jobs?

Naoki Yoshida : It's a difficult question and one we've been discussing internally for the past five years. It's true that we've exchanged ideas amongst ourselves. Since there's a Novice Hall, we've been thinking about creating an “Intermediate hall” where people can learn mechanics that are a little different or at a higher level. Things like tank swap, mechanics that they don't necessarily master. The problem is that creating this kind of content can also create a rift among players, with some high-level players saying “No, you haven't finished the Intermediate hall so don't play with us because you need to do this content first”. So I'm a bit afraid of that kind of backlash in terms of the overall atmosphere of the game.

And the other reality is that since Shadowbringers, we've had a much bigger influx of players than we've had up until now, and people who aren't necessarily here to make battle content. There are people who come just because they like to do Gpose, housing, spending time with their friends... So I'm a little worried about forcing content or creating mandatory steps that might break the immersion or put people on a certain path and block their progress in the game. That's a really tricky question you've raised.

On the other hand, it's true that for players who want to start out with extreme and savage content, there's really no place to learn how to play the game, to learn how to master certain game mechanics, other than to do it and learn by dying. So, yes, I agree that there's a gap. Maybe something needs to be done here to alleviate the problem of accompanying players or teaching them how to play the game. It's something we're giving a lot of thought to.

We pretty much all agree in the development team that it would be good to integrate something to make people aware of what a rotation is, what kind of rotations you can set up and how to learn them. So there's a good chance that we'll be developing something on this subject very soon.

FFDream : Over the past ten years, we've seen attempts to improve gameplay by introducing new mechanics in dungeons and boss battles, as well as in PVE quests such as NPC tracking and tailing missions... Do you ever feel the technical limits imposed by FFXIV on gameplay as a whole? Do you fear that these constraints will lead to repetitive gameplay mechanics in future years?

Naoki Yoshida : In truth, more than the game engine, which is getting a little old and limiting us in terms of possibilities, the biggest challenge with FFXIV - which offline games don't have - is the technology and the exchange between servers and clients. It imposes some very specific limitations on us, and really requires us to be flexible in our development and to have the means to compensate for the kind of problems that can arise. It's been our headache, literally, for over 10 years now. We've got lots of ideas, we'd like to implement them, but how are we going to manage to do so with the limitations that exist as a result of being an MMO?

That is what's so difficult about FFXIV. Every time you take an action in the game, the game will communicate with the server, check for cheating and come back afterwards. This creates a delay that an offline game doesn't have, since there's no need to check on the Internet. This limitation is something we've had to deal with for years, and it does limit us somewhat in what we can manage to implement in the game.

If it were up to me, for example, I'd make chests with 10 000 items inside! There's no reason why people shouldn't be rewarded for their efforts. But precisely because of communications with the server, we're limited in certain things, but we're MMO developers, it's something we have to deal with and learn to work around. We have to be flexible with our ideas and think about how best to implement them.

Finaland : I thought with Endwalker, we'd be done with the Ascians. But it turns out we haven't. I was surprised to see that many of them didn't act when Zodiark woke up. Can we expect any surprises from them? I imagine that the end of Dawntrail gives us food for thought on this subject, especially with Sphene's crown. Also, Gaius had a few Ascian masks, but I don't think he knows how to completely eliminate an Ascian...

Naoki Yoshida : Obviously, the end of the Hydaelyn - Zodiark Arc means that we might think we've finished with the Ascians, but we've never said we're done with them. At the same time, I can't tell you right now whether the Ascians are coming back or not. I can't say for sure.

The only thing I can say is that the Ascians' main goal, the one shared by Emet-Selch, was to use Zodiark to bring back humanity and the ancients. That humanity which had been sacrificed and separated into thirteen by Venat, now Hydaelyn. The fact is, with Zodiark gone, this goal can no longer be achieved, and now humanity's future is in the hands of humans as they are now, as incomplete as they can be. From the point of view of the ancients, it's no longer possible to dream of what they thought they could achieve in the past. And I don't think we're going to go back on that, or question and reuse that storyline.

I don't think we should be thinking too much in terms of a hidden threat remaining, but rather that the Ascians have left behind a lot of mysteries and a lot of things we're not yet aware of. And perhaps that's precisely where the clues to FFXIV's future lie, in the things that have been left untouched and that it's up to us to discover. I'm not going to reveal any more, but here's the thing: don't imagine there's a plot behind it. I don't think that's the direction we're going in.

There's always time for reflection. It's quite a fun exercise, I think, to wonder what the other sundered are up to in the meantime. What kind of dirty tricks are they up to? Obviously, I can't say that they won't be back or that we won't see them again, or maybe they're up to something. I'm not going to get ahead of myself. On the other hand, you can imagine that there won't be any surprises like “Actually, Emet-Selch was the weakest of the Convocation of 14, I'm the greatest!” This kind of development is not planned. I think the players would come down on me in a hurry! (laughs)

We obviously want to create a story that lives up to what's been done before, and not use twists that are a little too easy.

FFDream : FINAL FANTASY XIV is packed with references to earlier episodes in the series. Such is the case with Dawntrail, which leans heavily towards FFIX and X and XI. Can you tell us more about how you go about implementing these elements? 

Naoki Yoshida : I have to tell you that it's not systematized in a formal way.

In our development team, there are scenario writers team, the battle team, the design team, the character design team... and everyone is a real fan of Final Fantasy, of the series in general. Myself included.

And I don't think the goal is simply for the team to say: “Hey, this thing is good in this FF or this thing is going to be useful in the story we want to set up, so we're going to use it in our game”. It's really a passion that comes through, and a desire to pay tribute to the titles that have forged us, that have marked us in our experience as gamers.

Often, when we choose to make references to older episodes, there's a desire to pay homage but there's also a desire to help FFXIV players discover other titles they might not have played and say to them: “Look, there's this game, FFIX, that you might not have played, but which is incredible. I'd like you, like me, to discover it and enjoy it because you've seen it in FFXIV.” So I received proposals from the battle team, the scenario writers team... And from there, it's pretty much up to me. Sometimes it's a bit too forced, not interesting, or we've already made references to FFIX, X and XI, we're not going to add to it. So I have to sort through all these proposals and decide what's worth adding to FFXIV.

What also happens is that, when we decide to create a new game system or new types of content, we draw inspiration from a certain gameplay element in another FF and say to ourselves: “Well, if we take this and put it with another element, we get this new type of gameplay that will speak to new players and at the same time be a tribute to what people have already experienced in another title. Wouldn't it be interesting to implement this in FFXIV?” So there are lots of different patterns to how we integrate the FF series into FFXIV.

You're going to think that we spend our days debating what we're going to put in the game in a sort of giant debate (laughs). But no, I have to tell you that it's a bit of a gut feeling. It's quite personal and not really systematized.

Finaland : I have a complicated question. I've just finished Dawntrail and I have to admit that I found it hard to understand everything, especially about the 6th and 12th reflections. We learn about the Lalafells in relation to the 6th and 12th reflections in The Living Memory. I thought that the reflections cease to exist when they return to the Source, but we can see that in the end they do exist, more or less. We also know that the future from which G'raha Tia came still exists in space-time. What has become of this future? 

Naoki Yoshida : First of all, have you been to Aloalo Island?

Finaland : I haven't had a chance to do it yet, but following what we learn in the Living Memory, my friends told me about it with a summary.

Naoki Yoshida : It's a pretty important point of lore. If you're interested, I urge you to play the Aloalo Island dungeon, because you're going to learn a lot of things that are linked to what's going on, particularly with Krile's story. Rather than listening to a summary, I invite you to dive in, and I think the various clues in this content should help you to understand a little better the situation you've found yourself in. 

I'm going to make a small point about reflections. What you can find in the Encyclopaedia Eorzea is considered canon. There won't be any plot twists like “It was written in the Enclyclopaedia Eorzea that this world had disappeared because of a calamity and rejoined the Source, but in reality it hadn't disappeared at all”. On the other hand, it's important to understand that when a reflection disappears, it's a world that had a history, that had a civilization, and we don't know exactly what may have happened on this world and the history of this people at the time of the calamity.

The Ascians and creatures who are able to navigate through space and time are the ones who cause the calamity in differents worlds. The clues you may be looking for, or at least the answers you're looking for, surely lie in the events that led to the different calamity, since we've seen that in the First, it's a flood of light... But there can be different floods. We saw the Flood of Darkness in the 13th reflection. So what kind of flood, what kind of calamity could have affected the various reflections to bring them into the Source, and what about the history, what about the events occurred up to that point to arrive at these consequences? Perhaps these are the answers to the game's many remaining mysteries. 

For example, if you did the Warring Triad quests in the Heavensward era, you met a character called Unukalhai, a young boy who was brought back from the 13th reflection by Elidibus. He is a character who arrived on this world before the Flood of Darkness and the transformation of the inhabitants into Voidsent. If he could have been transported from one world to another before the arrival of a flood and a calamity, perhaps it's possible that other peoples could have crossed reflections and other worlds, moving from one world to another to avoid certain catastrophes. I'm going to stop here because I feel I'm revealing too much (laughs). I'd have to draw up a diagram to explain it in more detail!

Go back to the Encyclopaedia Eorzea, take a look at the diagram of the different reflections and make a history of what has disappeared. This should help you.

The way we imagine space-time in FFXIV is what's known as the branch theory, i.e. there isn't just one timeline, but each time an event occurs, it splits into different branches. So the branch where the 8th Umbral Calamity took place, i.e. the poisoning of the Scions of the Seventh Dawn and the Warrior of Light, their death, the awakening of G'raha Tia in the Crystal Tower, who will return to the past with the Crystal Tower etc... This branch of space-time, it still exists and indeed it continues even after G'raha's departure. If we had to sum it up in a single word, it's a bit like the theory of the Multiverse.

There's a story in Tales from the Shadows, after the 8th Calamity and after G'raha's departure, to show you that life somewhere continues on this version of the Source which is no longer ours, since the future has been changed. I think that, having sent G'raha Tia into the past, those who remained are still fighting to defend their future, and in this version of reality, Emet-Selch is surely their greatest foe, and they're facing unknown threats. Since the Warrior of Light is dead, no one can stop or kill him, so somewhat he's still alive there. 

FFDream : The arrival of a new story could serve as a gateway for new players, but access to Dawntrail remains difficult and conditional on completion of all previous expansions. In the past, you mentioned the possibility of skipping all previous content and starting Dawntrail straight away. Is this still a possibility, and if so, where do you stand in your thinking?

Naoki Yoshida : Actually, this kind of system, starting a new character directly to 6.1 had been imagined and even almost implemented. But I decided not to use it.

What made me change my mind is that I think the majority of FFXIV players, especially those who tell their friends to join them because it's amazing and the story is crazy... Well, it's a bit hard to sell such things if you force them to skip the story by asking them to start directly with Dawntrail. I don't think many people in the FFXIV community would say that you shouldn't play the chapter dedicated to Hydaelyn and Zodiark because it's pointless and it's better to join them right away. On the contrary, I have the impression that we have a community of people who like to be mentors, who like to take newcomers by the hand and show them how things are done and how to play. And I have no desire to restrain this phenomenon by creating a way to start the game much later in the story. In my opinion, it's more interesting to continue with this system of benevolent veterans helping new players discover the story and learn how to play the game. These are elements that go together, and I think it's important to continue to benefit from the goodwill of this community and all these Warriors of Light to take care of the next generation. That's why, in the end, we did not go through this system. 

Imagine if there was a button that would skip everything up to 6.1. If a friend told you he wanted to start FFXIV, would you tell him to press that button?

FFDream et Finaland : Nope !

Naoki Yoshida : I feel like many people are very concerned about this issue, especially in the media. Each time, with each new expansion, I'm asked about it more and more, as if it were becoming a real problem weighing on the game, and I get the impression that people are worried about us. When in truth, for me, the story and the quality of the story make FFXIV stand out from other MMOs, and it would be a shame to deprive ourselves of that.

During Dawntrail's Media Tour, 8 media people asked me the same question as you, and so I asked them the same question about the skip button and whether they'd recommend pressing it. And everyone categorically told me no, of course not.

Finaland : In a previous interview we did for Stormblood, I asked whether the team had been able to travel to create the expansion, so as to draw inspiration from different cultures. But at the time, you replied that they hadn't had the time because you and the team were so busy. For Dawntrail, was the team able to travel in the same way as Wuk Lamat? To learn, understand and immerse themselves in another culture?

Naoki Yoshida : (After making a sad face) No, we couldn't travel...

Odilon Grevet : On the other hand, let me add, because Yoshida-san obviously doesn't know, that the Scenario team - Natsuko Ishikawa and the other writers - were able to go to Tokyo to visit an exhibition dedicated to Mesoamerican art. So we took the opportunity to discover what Dawntrail's atmosphere would be like. We didn't get to go to Central and South America, but took advantage of having a bit of it in Japan to soak it all up.

FFDream : Hence the names (laughs).

Naoki Yoshida : (Laughs) Yes, it's true that the names were a bit complicated. It's also a feedback that we'll keep in mind for the future, and maybe try to find something a little simpler.

On the other hand, it's important to understand that these names aren't completely out of the blue. They all have a very specific meaning and have required a great deal of research into the different cultures they represent. They have meaning and are not just a string of random syllables. They are references and tributes to the different cultures from which they are drawn. It's a job that's important to me, but I'd like to see us perhaps compromise later on for something a bit more digestible for everyone. Something more understandable, while still retaining the authenticity and passion that the naming team had for conveying a certain reality at the end of the day.

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Interview done by : AlxZ (FFDream), Fat Chocobo
Transcription : AlxZ
Special Thanks: FFDream / Square Enix France / Square Enix Europe / Square Enix Japan